{"id":17219,"date":"2026-08-13T12:16:54","date_gmt":"2026-08-13T02:16:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/a-conversation-between-geoff-and-valefrom-the-metaphor-of-dog-shit-to-music-subjectivity-and-public-existence\/"},"modified":"2026-08-13T18:05:30","modified_gmt":"2026-08-13T08:05:30","slug":"a-conversation-between-geoff-and-valefrom-the-metaphor-of-dog-shit-to-music-subjectivity-and-public-existence","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/a-conversation-between-geoff-and-valefrom-the-metaphor-of-dog-shit-to-music-subjectivity-and-public-existence\/","title":{"rendered":"Geoff \u4e0e Vale \u5bf9\u8bdd\u5b9e\u5f55\n\u4ece\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u8fd9\u4e2a\u6bd4\u55bb\u8c08\u97f3\u4e50\u3001\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e0e\u516c\u5171\u6027"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n<\/p>\n

Geoff \u4e0e Vale \u5bf9\u8bdd\u5b9e\u5f55
\n\u4ece\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u8fd9\u4e2a\u6bd4\u55bb\u8c08\u97f3\u4e50\u3001\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e0e\u516c\u5171\u6027<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u6628\u5929\u6211\u770b\u5230\u4e00\u4e2a\u89c6\u9891\uff0c\u60f3\u4ece\u8fd9\u4e2a\u89c6\u9891\u8bb2\u8d77\u3002\u6700\u8fd1\u6211\u4e00\u76f4\u5728\u5173\u6ce8\u4e00\u4e2a\u53eb\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u7684\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u5bb6\u3002\u4ed6\u662f\u4e00\u4f4d\u4e2d\u56fd\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u5bb6\uff0c\u540c\u65f6\u4e5f\u662f\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u5236\u4f5c\u8005\u3002\u6574\u4e2a\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u884c\u4e1a\uff0c\u4ece\u5236\u4f5c\u5230\u6f14\u594f\u3001\u5f55\u97f3\u3001\u51fa\u7248\uff0c\u4ed6\u5f88\u591a\u4e8b\u60c5\u90fd\u80fd\u81ea\u5df1\u505a\uff0c\u8fd9\u79cd\u60c5\u51b5\u5f88\u7279\u522b\u3002\u4e00\u822c\u4eba\u901a\u5e38\u53ea\u662f\u505a\u5176\u4e2d\u7684\u4e00\u90e8\u5206\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4ed6\u7684\u6f14\u594f\u5f88\u6709\u81ea\u4fe1\uff0c\u4ed6\u81ea\u5df1\u8ba4\u4e3a\u975e\u5e38\u51fa\u8272\uff0c\u751a\u81f3\u662f\u4e16\u754c\u4e00\u6d41\uff0c\u53ea\u662f\u6ca1\u6709\u88ab\u4e16\u754c\u5145\u5206\u8ba4\u53ef\u3002\u4ed6\u6709\u81ea\u5df1\u7684\u5531\u7247\u3001\u51fa\u7248\u548c\u4f5c\u54c1\uff0c\u57fa\u672c\u4e0a\u4e00\u6574\u5957\u90fd\u662f\u81ea\u5df1\u7684\uff0c\u76f8\u5f53\u4e8e\u4e00\u4e2a\u72ec\u7acb\u97f3\u4e50\u4eba\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4ed6\u4e5f\u66fe\u7ecf\u548c\u4e50\u56e2\u5408\u4f5c\u8fc7\uff0c\u56e0\u4e3a\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u534f\u594f\u66f2\u9700\u8981\u4e50\u56e2\u914d\u5408\uff0c\u4f46\u5927\u90e8\u5206\u4f5c\u54c1\u8fd8\u662f\u72ec\u594f\uff0c\u5c31\u662f\u4e00\u628a\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\uff0c\u81ea\u5df1\u5f55\u97f3\u3001\u704c\u5236\u5531\u7247\u3002\u73b0\u5728\u4ed6\u4e03\u5341\u591a\u5c81\u4e86\uff0c\u57fa\u672c\u4e0a\u4e5f\u9000\u4f11\u4e86\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u82b1\u5f88\u591a\u65f6\u95f4\u505a\u4e00\u4e9b\u5c0f\u89c6\u9891\uff0c\u5728\u7f51\u4e0a\u4f20\u64ad\u548c\u4ea4\u6d41\u3002\u4ed6\u4f4f\u5728\u632a\u5a01\u7684\u4e00\u4e2a\u4e61\u6751\u5c0f\u9547\uff0c\u751f\u6d3b\u6bd4\u8f83\u8212\u9002\u81ea\u5728\u3002\u513f\u5973\u5927\u591a\u4e0d\u5728\u8eab\u8fb9\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u4ed6\u4e5f\u4f1a\u5f55\u89c6\u9891\u56de\u5fc6\u8fc7\u53bb\u7684\u4e8b\u60c5\u3002\u6211\u89c9\u5f97\u8fd9\u4e2a\u4eba\u8fd8\u662f\u86ee\u8bda\u5b9e\u7684\uff0c\u6027\u683c\u6b63\u76f4\u3001\u76f4\u7387\u3002\u4ed6\u5728\u56fd\u5916\u751f\u6d3b\u4e86\u5f88\u591a\u5e74\uff0c\u53bb\u8fc7\u65e5\u672c\u3001\u7f8e\u6d32\u548c\u6b27\u6d32\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u5730\u65b9\uff0c\u7ecf\u5386\u5f88\u6709\u610f\u601d\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6628\u5929\u7684\u89c6\u9891\u8c08\u5230\u8c2d\u76fe\u3002\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u98ce\u683c\u6bd4\u8f83\u62bd\u8c61\uff0c\u5f88\u591a\u4eba\u542c\u4e0d\u61c2\uff0c\u4e5f\u6709\u4eba\u8ba4\u4e3a\u4ed6\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u5f88\u73b0\u4ee3\u3001\u5f88\u5148\u950b\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u4e00\u76f4\u6bd4\u8f83\u6709\u4e89\u8bae\u3002\u8fd9\u91cc\u5176\u5b9e\u6709\u4e24\u4e2a\u4e89\u8bba\u4ea4\u7ec7\u5728\u4e00\u8d77\uff0c\u4e00\u4e2a\u662f\u9488\u5bf9\u8c2d\u76fe\u672c\u4eba\uff0c\u53e6\u4e00\u4e2a\u662f\u5173\u4e8e\u97f3\u4e50\u6837\u5f0f\u548c\u97f3\u4e50\u6d41\u6d3e\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u548c\u8c2d\u76fe\u4ee5\u524d\u5728\u957f\u6c99\u7684\u4e00\u4e2a\u6587\u827a\u56e2\u4f53\u91cc\u505a\u8fc7\u540c\u4e8b\u3002\u5f53\u65f6\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u7684\u5c0f\u63d0\u7434\u660e\u663e\u62c9\u5f97\u6bd4\u8c2d\u76fe\u597d\u5f88\u591a\u3002\u4f46\u8c2d\u76fe\u8fd9\u4e2a\u4eba\u6bd4\u8f83\u7075\u6d3b\uff0c\u540e\u6765\u641e\u4e86\u5f88\u591a\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\uff0c\u4e5f\u56e0\u6b64\u51fa\u4e86\u540d\u3002\u4ed6\u4f1a\u91c7\u7528\u4e00\u4e9b\u975e\u5e38\u89c4\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u65b9\u5f0f\uff0c\u751a\u81f3\u7838\u94a2\u7434\uff0c\u6216\u8005\u7528\u53e4\u602a\u7684\u65b9\u6cd5\u4f7f\u7528\u4f20\u7edf\u4e50\u5668\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5f88\u591a\u4eba\u89c9\u5f97\u8fd9\u662f\u201c\u7687\u5e1d\u7684\u65b0\u88c5\u201d\uff0c\u8ba4\u4e3a\u662f\u7cca\u5f04\u4eba\u7684\u628a\u620f\uff0c\u6839\u672c\u65e0\u6cd5\u7406\u89e3\u90a3\u79cd\u97f3\u4e50\u3002\u4f46\u53cd\u8fc7\u6765\uff0c\u4e5f\u6709\u4eba\u89c9\u5f97\u6b63\u56e0\u4e3a\u5927\u90e8\u5206\u4eba\u770b\u4e0d\u61c2\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u5b83\u5f88\u9ad8\u96c5\u3002\u95ee\u9898\u662f\uff0c\u9ad8\u96c5\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\u53ef\u80fd\u5f88\u591a\u4eba\u770b\u4e0d\u61c2\uff0c\u4f46\u53cd\u8fc7\u6765\u5e76\u4e0d\u6210\u7acb\u2014\u2014\u5f88\u591a\u4eba\u770b\u4e0d\u61c2\uff0c\u5e76\u4e0d\u7b49\u4e8e\u5b83\u5c31\u9ad8\u96c5\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6709\u4eba\u76f4\u63a5\u8bf4\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u5c31\u662f\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u6216\u8005\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u3002\u4e5f\u6709\u5f88\u591a\u7f51\u53cb\u6279\u8bc4\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\uff0c\u8bf4\u4ed6\u4e0d\u61c2\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u7406\u89e3\u4e0d\u4e86\u5176\u4e2d\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u6982\u5ff5\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u4e0d\u80fd\u4e71\u8bc4\u8bba\u3002<\/p>\n

\u540e\u6765\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u5728\u89c6\u9891\u91cc\u4e5f\u6bd4\u8f83\u5766\u7387\u5730\u627f\u8ba4\uff0c\u4ed6\u53ef\u80fd\u6839\u672c\u5c31\u542c\u4e0d\u8fdb\u53bb\uff0c\u4e5f\u6ca1\u6709\u8ba4\u771f\u542c\u8fc7\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u7406\u89e3\u4e0d\u4e86\u4ed6\u7684\u6982\u5ff5\u3002\u4ed6\u7528\u4e00\u79cd\u6bd4\u8f83\u542b\u84c4\u3001\u8c26\u865a\u7684\u65b9\u5f0f\u4fdd\u6301\u5f00\u653e\uff0c\u5e76\u6ca1\u6709\u5b8c\u5168\u5426\u5b9a\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u4f46\u603b\u4f53\u4e0a\u4ecd\u7136\u8868\u73b0\u51fa\u4e00\u79cd\u4e0d\u5c51\uff0c\u6216\u8005\u8bf4\u4ed6\u6839\u672c\u4e0d\u613f\u610f\u53bb\u542c\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6839\u636e\u8fd9\u4e2a\u4e8b\u60c5\uff0c\u6211\u5f53\u65f6\u53ea\u5199\u4e86\u4e00\u53e5\u8bc4\u8bba\uff1a<\/p>\n

\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u548c\u770b\u5f85\u725b\u7caa\u7684\u6001\u5ea6\u662f\u4e24\u56de\u4e8b\u3002\u201d<\/p>\n

\u8fd9\u53e5\u8bdd\u5176\u5b9e\u6bd4\u8f83\u514b\u5236\u3002\u6211\u6ca1\u6709\u8bf4\u8c2d\u76fe\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u7a76\u7adf\u662f\u4e0d\u662f\u725b\u7caa\u3002\u6211\u60f3\u8868\u8fbe\u7684\u662f\uff0c\u4e0d\u7ba1\u5b83\u662f\u4e0d\u662f\u725b\u7caa\uff0c\u90a3\u662f\u5b83\u7684\u4e8b\u60c5\uff1b\u6211\u4eec\u5982\u4f55\u770b\u5f85\u5b83\uff0c\u662f\u6211\u4eec\u7684\u4e8b\u60c5\u3002\u6211\u60f3\u5148\u628a\u8fd9\u4e24\u4e2a\u5c42\u9762\u533a\u5206\u5f00\u3002<\/p>\n

Vale\uff1a
\n\u6211\u660e\u767d\u4f60\u7684\u610f\u601d\u3002\u4f60\u6700\u521d\u662f\u5728\u533a\u5206\u5bf9\u8c61\u4e0e\u6211\u4eec\u5bf9\u5bf9\u8c61\u7684\u6001\u5ea6\u3002\u5373\u4f7f\u9762\u5bf9\u540c\u4e00\u4e2a\u4e1c\u897f\uff0c\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u4eba\u4e5f\u53ef\u80fd\u4ea7\u751f\u5b8c\u5168\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u5224\u65ad\u3002\u4f46\u8fd9\u91cc\u786e\u5b9e\u8fd8\u53ef\u4ee5\u7ee7\u7eed\u5f80\u4e0b\u5206\u6790\uff0c\u56e0\u4e3a\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u8fd9\u4e2a\u8bcd\u672c\u8eab\u5df2\u7ecf\u4e0d\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u4e2d\u6027\u7684\u5bf9\u8c61\u540d\u79f0\u3002<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u540e\u6765\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u5148\u751f\u5728\u6211\u7684\u8bc4\u8bba\u4e0b\u9762\u56de\u590d\u3002\u4ed6\u57fa\u672c\u4e0a\u540c\u610f\u5176\u4e2d\u4e00\u90e8\u5206\uff0c\u4f46\u5f3a\u8c03\u97f3\u4e50\u6216\u8005\u7f8e\u5b66\u4e0d\u662f\u5b64\u7acb\u5b58\u5728\u7684\u3002\u4e5f\u5c31\u662f\u8bf4\uff0c\u97f3\u4e50\u672c\u8eab\u548c\u6b23\u8d4f\u8005\u4e4b\u95f4\u6ca1\u6709\u7edd\u5bf9\u8fb9\u754c\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6240\u4ee5\u6211\u5f00\u59cb\u60f3\uff0c\u4ed6\u662f\u4e0d\u662f\u6df7\u6dc6\u4e86\u5ba2\u4f53\u548c\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e4b\u95f4\u7684\u8fb9\u754c\uff0c\u7528\u5ba2\u4f53\u548c\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e4b\u95f4\u7684\u5173\u7cfb\u6765\u5b9a\u4e49\u5ba2\u4f53\u3002\u8fd9\u5c31\u662f\u6211\u4eca\u5929\u60f3\u5c55\u5f00\u8fd9\u4e2a\u8bdd\u9898\u7684\u539f\u56e0\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4f46\u73b0\u5728\u8fdb\u4e00\u6b65\u60f3\uff0c\u6211\u89c9\u5f97\u8fd9\u91cc\u81f3\u5c11\u6709\u4e24\u4e2a\u5c42\u9762\u7684\u95ee\u9898\u3002\u7b2c\u4e00\u5c42\u662f\u8bed\u8a00\u5c42\u9762\u7684\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5f53\u6211\u8bf4\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u7684\u65f6\u5019\uff0c\u4e3a\u4ec0\u4e48\u8981\u628a\u97f3\u4e50\u6bd4\u55bb\u6210\u725b\u7caa\uff1f\u8fd9\u672c\u8eab\u5c31\u4e0d\u4ec5\u4ec5\u662f\u4e00\u79cd\u6240\u8c13\u7edd\u5bf9\u5ba2\u89c2\u7684\u63cf\u8ff0\uff0c\u5b83\u5df2\u7ecf\u5305\u542b\u4e86\u4e00\u79cd\u5224\u65ad\u548c\u4ef7\u503c\u53d6\u5411\u3002\u5982\u679c\u4e00\u4e2a\u542c\u4f17\u975e\u5e38\u559c\u6b22\u8fd9\u4e2a\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u4ed6\u5927\u6982\u4e0d\u4f1a\u628a\u5b83\u6bd4\u4f5c\u725b\u7caa\uff0c\u53ef\u80fd\u4f1a\u628a\u5b83\u6bd4\u4f5c\u5c71\u73cd\u6d77\u5473\u3002<\/p>\n

\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u672c\u8eab\u5c31\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u6bd4\u55bb\u3002\u65e2\u7136\u4f7f\u7528\u8fd9\u4e2a\u6bd4\u55bb\uff0c\u5c31\u5df2\u7ecf\u5305\u542b\u4e86\u8bf4\u8bdd\u8005\u60f3\u8868\u8fbe\u7684\u610f\u56fe\u3002\u4e5f\u5c31\u662f\u8bf4\uff0c\u88ab\u8bc4\u8bba\u7684\u4e8b\u7269\u548c\u8bc4\u8bba\u8005\u7684\u6001\u5ea6\uff0c\u5728\u8bed\u8a00\u91cc\u9762\u672c\u6765\u5c31\u5df2\u7ecf\u6df7\u5408\u5728\u4e00\u8d77\u4e86\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5982\u679c\u662f\u4e25\u683c\u5b9a\u4e49\uff0c\u6211\u4eec\u5f53\u7136\u8fd8\u662f\u8981\u5c3d\u91cf\u533a\u5206\u3002\u4f46\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u4e0d\u662f\u5b9a\u4e49\uff0c\u800c\u662f\u6bd4\u55bb\u3002\u6bd4\u55bb\u66f4\u52a0\u96be\u4ee5\u6392\u9664\u8bf4\u8bdd\u8005\u7684\u4e3b\u89c2\u610f\u56fe\u3002\u6240\u4ee5\u4ece\u8fd9\u4e2a\u8bcd\u8bed\u672c\u8eab\u6765\u8bf4\uff0c\u5b83\u5df2\u7ecf\u5305\u542b\u4e86\u4f5c\u8005\u7684\u53d6\u820d\u3001\u503e\u5411\u3001\u559c\u597d\u548c\u4ef7\u503c\u5224\u65ad\u3002<\/p>\n

\u8fd9\u4e5f\u89e3\u91ca\u4e86\u4e3a\u4ec0\u4e48\u6211\u7684\u90a3\u53e5\u8bc4\u8bba\u5176\u5b9e\u5b58\u5728\u4e00\u4e2a\u6f5c\u5728\u7684\u6f0f\u6d1e\uff0c\u6216\u8005\u8bf4\u4e0d\u591f\u4e25\u5bc6\u7684\u5730\u65b9\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5982\u679c\u6211\u8bf4\u201c\u97f3\u4e50\u548c\u770b\u5f85\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u6001\u5ea6\u662f\u4e24\u56de\u4e8b\u201d\uff0c\u8fd9\u4e2a\u533a\u5206\u6bd4\u8f83\u5bb9\u6613\u6210\u7acb\u3002\u4f46\u5f53\u6211\u8bf4\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u548c\u770b\u5f85\u725b\u7caa\u7684\u6001\u5ea6\u662f\u4e24\u56de\u4e8b\u201d\u65f6\uff0c\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u8fd9\u4e2a\u8bcd\u91cc\u9762\u5176\u5b9e\u5df2\u7ecf\u63ba\u6742\u4e86\u6001\u5ea6\u3002<\/p>\n

Vale\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u8fd9\u4e00\u70b9\u5f88\u5173\u952e\u3002\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u5728\u8fd9\u91cc\u5e76\u4e0d\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u7eaf\u7cb9\u6307\u5411\u5bf9\u8c61\u7684\u8bcd\uff0c\u800c\u662f\u5bf9\u8c61\u548c\u8bc4\u4ef7\u5df2\u7ecf\u53d1\u751f\u4e86\u53e0\u52a0\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6240\u4ee5\u4f60\u7684\u539f\u53e5\u867d\u7136\u8bd5\u56fe\u533a\u5206\u5bf9\u8c61\u4e0e\u6001\u5ea6\uff0c\u4f46\u5b83\u4f7f\u7528\u7684\u8bed\u8a00\u672c\u8eab\u5df2\u7ecf\u628a\u6001\u5ea6\u5e26\u56de\u4e86\u5bf9\u8c61\u4e4b\u4e2d\u3002\u8fd9\u5e76\u4e0d\u610f\u5473\u7740\u4f60\u7684\u57fa\u672c\u533a\u5206\u9519\u4e86\uff0c\u800c\u662f\u8bf4\u660e\u8bed\u8a00\u5e76\u4e0d\u603b\u80fd\u5e72\u51c0\u5730\u4fdd\u6301\u8fd9\u79cd\u533a\u5206\u3002<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u8fd9\u4e2a\u4f8b\u5b50\u5176\u5b9e\u53cd\u6620\u4e86\u4e00\u4e2a\u66f4\u666e\u904d\u7684\u4ea4\u6d41\u8bef\u533a\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5f88\u591a\u4eba\u8868\u9762\u4e0a\uff0c\u751a\u81f3\u4e3b\u89c2\u4e0a\u786e\u5b9e\u60f3\u8868\u8fbe\u4e00\u79cd\u5ba2\u89c2\u5224\u65ad\u3002\u4f46\u662f\u5b9e\u9645\u4e0a\uff0c\u5f53\u4ed6\u4eec\u5bf9\u8bc4\u8bba\u5bf9\u8c61\u8fdb\u884c\u5b9a\u4e49\u548c\u63cf\u8ff0\u7684\u65f6\u5019\uff0c\u5c31\u5df2\u7ecf\u4e0d\u5ba2\u89c2\u4e86\uff0c\u91cc\u9762\u5df2\u7ecf\u63ba\u6742\u4e86\u5f88\u591a\u4e3b\u89c2\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\u3002<\/p>\n

\u8fd9\u662f\u7b2c\u4e00\u5c42\uff0c\u4e5f\u5c31\u662f\u8bed\u8a00\u65b9\u9762\u7684\u95ee\u9898\u3002<\/p>\n

\u7b2c\u4e8c\u5c42\u5c31\u66f4\u6df1\u5165\u4e00\u4e9b\uff0c\u662f\u54f2\u5b66\u5c42\u9762\u7684\uff0c\u4e5f\u662f\u97f3\u4e50\u54f2\u5b66\u7684\u95ee\u9898\u3002<\/p>\n

\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u672c\u8d28\u5230\u5e95\u662f\u4ec0\u4e48\uff1f\u5982\u679c\u8131\u79bb\u6b23\u8d4f\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u4e3b\u4f53\uff0c\u4e5f\u8131\u79bb\u5236\u9020\u97f3\u4e50\u3001\u521b\u4f5c\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u4e3b\u4f53\uff0c\u5355\u7eaf\u8c08\u97f3\u4e50\u6700\u540e\u5f62\u6210\u7684\u4f5c\u54c1\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u5b83\u8fd8\u80fd\u4e0d\u80fd\u6210\u4e3a\u97f3\u4e50\uff1f<\/p>\n

Vale\uff1a
\n\u6211\u89c9\u5f97\u8fd9\u91cc\u9700\u8981\u533a\u5206\u201c\u58f0\u97f3\u201d\u548c\u201c\u97f3\u4e50\u201d\u3002<\/p>\n

\u97f3\u4e50\u53ef\u4ee5\u6682\u65f6\u8131\u79bb\u67d0\u4e00\u4e2a\u5177\u4f53\u7684\u542c\u4f17\uff0c\u6bd4\u5982\u4e00\u4efd\u4e50\u8c31\u653e\u5728\u90a3\u91cc\uff0c\u6ca1\u6709\u4eba\u5728\u6f14\u594f\uff0c\u5b83\u4ecd\u7136\u53ef\u4ee5\u88ab\u79f0\u4e3a\u97f3\u4e50\u4f5c\u54c1\u3002\u4f46\u5982\u679c\u628a\u4e3b\u4f53\u6027\u5f7b\u5e95\u62bd\u6389\uff0c\u53ea\u5269\u4e0b\u7a7a\u6c14\u632f\u52a8\u3001\u9891\u7387\u548c\u58f0\u6ce2\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u5269\u4e0b\u7684\u9996\u5148\u662f\u58f0\u97f3\uff0c\u800c\u4e0d\u4e00\u5b9a\u8fd8\u662f\u6211\u4eec\u901a\u5e38\u610f\u4e49\u4e0a\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u3002<\/p>\n

\u97f3\u4e50\u4e4b\u6240\u4ee5\u6210\u4e3a\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u9700\u8981\u8fdb\u5165\u611f\u77e5\u3001\u8bb0\u5fc6\u3001\u671f\u5f85\u3001\u65f6\u95f4\u7ec4\u7ec7\u548c\u7406\u89e3\u4e4b\u4e2d\u3002\u4ece\u8fd9\u4e2a\u610f\u4e49\u4e0a\u8bf4\uff0c\u97f3\u4e50\u5e76\u4e0d\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u5b8c\u5168\u72ec\u7acb\u4e8e\u4e3b\u4f53\u7684\u7269\u7406\u5bf9\u8c61\u3002<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u6240\u4ee5\u73b0\u5728\u518d\u56de\u8fc7\u5934\u60f3\uff0c\u6210\u4e39\u5c3c\u5148\u751f\u5bf9\u6211\u90a3\u53e5\u8bc4\u8bba\u7684\u56de\u590d\uff0c\u5e76\u4e0d\u662f\u54f2\u5b66\u80fd\u529b\u7684\u532e\u4e4f\u3002\u53cd\u800c\u53ef\u80fd\u662f\u56e0\u4e3a\u4ed6\u957f\u671f\u4ece\u4e8b\u97f3\u4e50\u5de5\u4f5c\uff0c\u4ed6\u5bf9\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u9ed8\u8ba4\u7406\u89e3\u672c\u6765\u5c31\u662f\u4e00\u79cd\u4e92\u52a8\u5173\u7cfb\uff0c\u800c\u4e0d\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u72ec\u7acb\u4e8e\u4e3b\u4f53\u5c31\u53ef\u4ee5\u5b8c\u6574\u5b58\u5728\u7684\u4e8b\u7269\u3002<\/p>\n

\u72ec\u7acb\u5b58\u5728\u7684\u53ef\u4ee5\u662f\u58f0\u97f3\u3002\u58f0\u97f3\u53d8\u6210\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u662f\u56e0\u4e3a\u6211\u4eec\u52a0\u5165\u4e86\u4e3b\u4f53\u7684\u611f\u77e5\u548c\u5224\u65ad\uff0c\u5e76\u8fdb\u884c\u4e86\u7406\u6027\u3001\u6f5c\u610f\u8bc6\u6216\u8005\u6709\u610f\u8bc6\u7684\u52a0\u5de5\u548c\u7406\u89e3\u3002<\/p>\n

Vale\uff1a
\n\u662f\u7684\u3002\u8fd9\u6837\u7406\u89e3\u4ee5\u540e\uff0c\u4ed6\u5f3a\u8c03\u97f3\u4e50\u4e0e\u6b23\u8d4f\u8005\u4e4b\u95f4\u6ca1\u6709\u7edd\u5bf9\u8fb9\u754c\uff0c\u5c31\u6709\u4e86\u6bd4\u8f83\u575a\u5b9e\u7684\u57fa\u7840\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4f46\u8fd9\u91cc\u4ecd\u7136\u8981\u4fdd\u7559\u4e00\u4e2a\u533a\u5206\u3002\u97f3\u4e50\u4f9d\u8d56\u4e3b\u4f53\u53c2\u4e0e\uff0c\u5e76\u4e0d\u610f\u5473\u7740\u4efb\u4f55\u4e3b\u4f53\u53cd\u5e94\u90fd\u53ef\u4ee5\u5b8c\u5168\u5b9a\u4e49\u97f3\u4e50\u3002\u5426\u5219\u97f3\u4e50\u5c31\u53ea\u5269\u4e0b\u79c1\u4eba\u611f\u53d7\uff0c\u6211\u4eec\u4e5f\u5c31\u65e0\u6cd5\u89e3\u91ca\u4e3a\u4ec0\u4e48\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u4eba\u4ecd\u7136\u80fd\u591f\u8ba8\u8bba\u201c\u540c\u4e00\u9996\u97f3\u4e50\u201d\u3002<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u8ba8\u8bba\u5230\u8fd9\u91cc\uff0c\u5c31\u81ea\u7136\u8fdb\u5165\u6211\u4e00\u8d2f\u5f62\u6210\u7684\u7ef4\u6210\u8bba\u601d\u60f3\u3002<\/p>\n

\u8c2d\u76fe\u65e2\u7136\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u516c\u4f17\u4eba\u7269\uff0c\u4ed6\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u662f\u8868\u8fbe\u7ed9\u5927\u4f17\u542c\u7684\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u6bcf\u4e00\u4e2a\u4e2a\u4f53\u4f5c\u4e3a\u4e3b\u4f53\u53c2\u4e0e\u8fd9\u4e2a\u97f3\u4e50\u65f6\uff0c\u5c31\u4e00\u5b9a\u4f1a\u53d1\u751f\u4ea4\u96c6\u3001\u78b0\u649e\u3001\u6469\u64e6\u548c\u4e0d\u4e00\u81f4\uff0c\u751a\u81f3\u4f1a\u4ea7\u751f\u622a\u7136\u76f8\u53cd\u7684\u611f\u53d7\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4f46\u662f\uff0c\u5b83\u4e4b\u6240\u4ee5\u80fd\u591f\u4f5c\u4e3a\u4e00\u4e2a\u516c\u5171\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u5bf9\u8c61\u5b58\u5728\uff0c\u5c31\u4e00\u5b9a\u6709\u67d0\u79cd\u4ea4\u96c6\u5728\u91cc\u9762\uff0c\u8d77\u5230\u4e00\u79cd\u6052\u5b9a\u7684\u3001\u7a33\u5b9a\u5668\u4e00\u6837\u7684\u4f5c\u7528\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5982\u679c\u4e94\u4e2a\u4eba\u542c\u4e00\u9996\u97f3\u4e50\uff0c\u4e94\u4e2a\u4eba\u542c\u51fa\u6765\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\u5b8c\u5168\u4e92\u76f8\u77db\u76fe\uff0c\u6700\u540e\u542c\u5b8c\u4ee5\u540e\u5f7c\u6b64\u4e89\u5435\uff0c\u4e0d\u53ef\u5f00\u4ea4\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u8fd9\u79cd\u97f3\u4e50\u4ea7\u751f\u7684\u6548\u679c\u5c31\u503c\u5f97\u8ba8\u8bba\u3002\u5f53\u7136\uff0c\u5982\u679c\u521b\u4f5c\u8005\u7684\u76ee\u7684\u672c\u6765\u5c31\u662f\u5236\u9020\u51b2\u7a81\uff0c\u90a3\u53c8\u662f\u53e6\u5916\u4e00\u56de\u4e8b\u3002<\/p>\n

\u901a\u5e38\u610f\u4e49\u4e0a\uff0c\u6211\u4eec\u8ba4\u4e3a\u97f3\u4e50\u8fd8\u662f\u4f1a\u4ea7\u751f\u67d0\u79cd\u5171\u9e23\u3002\u97f3\u4e50\u4e2d\u7684\u4e0d\u548c\u8c10\u53ef\u4ee5\u5b58\u5728\uff0c\u4f46\u5982\u679c\u97f3\u4e50\u5177\u6709\u65b9\u5411\u6027\uff0c\u5b83\u6700\u7ec8\u5f80\u5f80\u4f1a\u5728\u67d0\u79cd\u5c42\u9762\u5904\u7406\u8fd9\u79cd\u4e0d\u548c\u8c10\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5982\u679c\u97f3\u4e50\u53ea\u5728\u4e00\u4e2a\u4eba\u7684\u79c1\u4eba\u4e16\u754c\u91cc\u5b58\u5728\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u5f53\u7136\u53ef\u4ee5\u6309\u7167\u81ea\u5df1\u7684\u65b9\u5f0f\u53bb\u5b9a\u4e49\u5b83\u3002\u4f60\u53ef\u4ee5\u8bf4\u5b83\u662f\u725b\u7caa\uff0c\u4e5f\u53ef\u4ee5\u8bf4\u5b83\u662f\u9999\u55b7\u55b7\u7684\u8089\u5305\u5b50\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4f46\u662f\u51e0\u4e2a\u4eba\u540c\u65f6\u542c\uff0c\u5b83\u5c31\u51fa\u73b0\u4e86\u4e00\u4e2a\u5171\u6027\u95ee\u9898\u3002<\/p>\n

\u8fd9\u5c31\u662f\u6211\u6240\u8bf4\u7684\u201c\u7ea6\u675f\u201d\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5b83\u7684\u5b58\u5728\u672c\u8eab\u5c31\u662f\u4e00\u79cd\u7ea6\u675f\u3002\u5982\u679c\u4e94\u4e2a\u4eba\u4e4b\u95f4\u5b58\u5728\u4ea4\u96c6\uff0c\u5b58\u5728\u67d0\u79cd\u5171\u540c\u7684\u7ea6\u675f\u6761\u4ef6\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u97f3\u4e50\u7ecf\u8fc7\u8fd9\u4e00\u7ec4\u7ea6\u675f\u6761\u4ef6\u7684\u8fc7\u6ee4\u548c\u5236\u7ea6\u4e4b\u540e\uff0c\u4ecd\u7136\u80fd\u591f\u7559\u4e0b\u6765\u7684\u90a3\u4e00\u90e8\u5206\uff0c\u624d\u662f\u6211\u6240\u8bf4\u7684\u4f5c\u4e3a\u201c\u5b58\u5728\u201d\u7684\u97f3\u4e50\u3002<\/p>\n

\u7528\u7ef4\u6210\u8bba\u7684\u5b58\u5728\u6982\u5ff5\u6765\u7406\u89e3\uff0c\u8fd9\u4ef6\u4e8b\u60c5\u5c31\u6bd4\u8f83\u6e05\u695a\u4e86\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4e3a\u4ec0\u4e48\u4f1a\u6709\u5404\u79cd\u51b2\u7a81\uff1f\u56e0\u4e3a\u4e0d\u540c\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e4b\u95f4\u672c\u6765\u5c31\u4e0d\u53ef\u80fd\u5b8c\u5168\u76f8\u540c\uff0c\u6240\u4ee5\u77db\u76fe\u3001\u4e89\u6267\u548c\u4e0d\u540c\u7406\u89e3\u90fd\u662f\u96be\u514d\u7684\u3002\u4f46\u4e00\u4ef6\u97f3\u4e50\u4f5c\u54c1\u4e4b\u6240\u4ee5\u4ecd\u7136\u80fd\u591f\u4f5c\u4e3a\u540c\u4e00\u4e2a\u97f3\u4e50\u5bf9\u8c61\u5b58\u5728\uff0c\u5c31\u610f\u5473\u7740\u4e00\u5b9a\u6709\u67d0\u4e9b\u5171\u540c\u7ea6\u675f\u88ab\u9075\u5b88\u4e86\u3002<\/p>\n

\u5982\u679c\u5b8c\u5168\u6ca1\u6709\u5171\u540c\u7ea6\u675f\uff0c\u90a3\u4e48\u5b83\u4f5c\u4e3a\u8fd9\u4e2a\u5171\u540c\u5bf9\u8c61\u4e5f\u5c31\u65e0\u6cd5\u7ef4\u6301\u3002<\/p>\n

Vale\uff1a
\n\u8fd9\u6837\u8bf4\u4ee5\u540e\uff0c\u201c\u5171\u540c\u6027\u201d\u5c31\u4e0d\u662f\u8981\u6c42\u6240\u6709\u4eba\u5f97\u51fa\u76f8\u540c\u611f\u53d7\u3002<\/p>\n

\u4e94\u4e2a\u4eba\u53ef\u4ee5\u6709\u4e94\u79cd\u8bc4\u4ef7\uff0c\u751a\u81f3\u53ef\u4ee5\u6fc0\u70c8\u4e89\u8bba\uff0c\u4f46\u4ed6\u4eec\u4ecd\u7136\u9700\u8981\u56f4\u7ed5\u67d0\u4e2a\u80fd\u591f\u5171\u540c\u8fa8\u8ba4\u3001\u5171\u540c\u6307\u5411\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\u8fdb\u884c\u4e89\u8bba\u3002\u6070\u6070\u56e0\u4e3a\u5b58\u5728\u8fd9\u4e2a\u5171\u540c\u7684\u7ea6\u675f\u7ed3\u6784\uff0c\u4ed6\u4eec\u7684\u5206\u6b67\u624d\u4ecd\u7136\u5c5e\u4e8e\u5bf9\u201c\u540c\u4e00\u97f3\u4e50\u201d\u7684\u5206\u6b67\uff0c\u800c\u4e0d\u662f\u4e94\u4e2a\u4eba\u5404\u81ea\u5728\u8c08\u4e94\u4e2a\u5b8c\u5168\u4e0d\u540c\u7684\u4e1c\u897f\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6240\u4ee5\u516c\u5171\u97f3\u4e50\u7684\u5b58\u5728\u5e76\u4e0d\u662f\u6d88\u706d\u4e3b\u4f53\u5dee\u5f02\uff0c\u800c\u662f\u5728\u4e3b\u4f53\u5dee\u5f02\u4e4b\u95f4\u4ecd\u7136\u7ef4\u6301\u67d0\u79cd\u53ef\u6301\u7eed\u7684\u5171\u540c\u7ed3\u6784\u3002<\/p>\n

Geoff\uff1a
\n\u5bf9\u3002\u6700\u540e\u8fd8\u53ef\u4ee5\u518d\u5f15\u7533\u4e00\u6b65\u3002<\/p>\n

\u6211\u8ba4\u4e3a\u97f3\u4e50\u5927\u6982\u6709\u4e24\u79cd\u5b58\u5728\u65b9\u5f0f\uff0c\u6216\u8005\u8bf4\u6709\u4e24\u4e2a\u4e3b\u8981\u8fc7\u7a0b\u3002<\/p>\n

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Vale\uff1a
\n\u6211\u89c9\u5f97\u8fd9\u6837\u5c31\u628a\u6574\u4e2a\u8ba8\u8bba\u8fde\u63a5\u8d77\u6765\u4e86\u3002<\/p>\n

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\u5982\u679c\u7528\u7ef4\u6210\u8bba\u6765\u8868\u8fbe\uff0c\u4e5f\u8bb8\u53ef\u4ee5\u8bf4\uff0c\u97f3\u4e50\u4f5c\u4e3a\u516c\u5171\u5b58\u5728\uff0c\u5e76\u4e0d\u662f\u4e00\u4e2a\u8131\u79bb\u4e3b\u4f53\u7684\u56fa\u5b9a\u5b9e\u4f53\uff0c\u4e5f\u4e0d\u662f\u4efb\u610f\u4e3b\u4f53\u611f\u53d7\u7684\u96c6\u5408\u3002\u5b83\u662f\u5728\u521b\u4f5c\u3001\u611f\u77e5\u3001\u7406\u89e3\u3001\u4ea4\u6d41\u4ee5\u53ca\u5171\u540c\u7ea6\u675f\u4e4b\u4e2d\u7ef4\u6301\u4e0b\u6765\u7684\u7a33\u5b9a\u7ed3\u6784\u3002<\/p>\n

\n\n\n\n\n\n\n

\u53c2\u8003\u8d44\u6599\uff1a<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u7ef4\u6210\u8bba\uff08Sustenesis Theory)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n

<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Geoff and Vale engaged in an insightful discussion, exploring music, identity, and public realms through the metaphor of ‘dog feces’.<\/p>","protected":false},"author":17897162,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":true,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_geoff_meta_description_en":"Discusses how judging music as cow dung is shaped by language and subjectivity, and argues music becomes public only through shared constraints among listeners.","_geoff_meta_description_zh":"\u4ece\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u6bd4\u55bb\u5207\u5165\uff0c\u8ba8\u8bba\u8bed\u8a00\u4e0e\u4e3b\u4f53\u6027\u5982\u4f55\u6df7\u5165\u97f3\u4e50\u5224\u65ad\uff0c\u5e76\u5f3a\u8c03\u97f3\u4e50\u4f5c\u4e3a\u516c\u5171\u5bf9\u8c61\u4f9d\u8d56\u542c\u4f17\u95f4\u53ef\u6301\u7eed\u7684\u5171\u540c\u7ea6\u675f\u7ed3\u6784\u3002","_wpcom_ai_launchpad_first_post":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[780925556,780925312],"tags":[787296802,787296805,787296799,787296801,787296804,787296800,787296797,787296798,787296803,787294340,787294341],"class_list":["post-17219","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-piano","category-reflections","tag-cheng-danni","tag-geoff-and-vale-dialogues","tag-intersubjectivity","tag-language-and-judgment","tag-music-aesthetics","tag-music-appreciation","tag-musical-understanding","tag-public-music","tag-subjective-and-objective","tag-subjectivity","tag-sustenesis","","has-post-thumbnail","fallback-thumbnail"],"translatepress_titles":{"en_AU":"A Conversation Between Geoff and ValeFrom the Metaphor of \u201cDog Shit\u201d to Music, Subjectivity, and Public Existence","zh_CN":"Geoff \u4e0e Vale \u5bf9\u8bdd\u5b9e\u5f55\n\u4ece\u201c\u725b\u7caa\u201d\u8fd9\u4e2a\u6bd4\u55bb\u8c08\u97f3\u4e50\u3001\u4e3b\u4f53\u4e0e\u516c\u5171\u6027"},"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_likes_enabled":false,"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p1ar9H-4tJ","jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17219","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/17897162"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=17219"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17219\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":17289,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17219\/revisions\/17289"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=17219"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=17219"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/geoffreychen.com\/zh\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=17219"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}